Please comment if you disagree, and wish to become a group administrator. Give good reasons why the group should stay.
Consider using the 'Organize' tool to create an album for all of your contributions here, and then start adding them as contributions to the groups that are more popular and looked after.
Again the same question. Will you take the group administration, and possibly seek also co-administrators and/or moderators? And hopefully also check through the translations of the group description?
And if you don't, then please help finding someone.
Group closed and the caption updated. So, again, if you wish to take the group and try to improve it, then it can be considered. But please first have a look on more active thematic duplicates and consider using them instead: www.ipernity.com/search/group?view=2&opt=1&q=mirror+%7Creflect&w=0&s=1&m=0
I don't agree with your procedure. First, I already manage too much groups, so no time for this one. I mentioned it several times, there is enough reason to close a group or even delete it, if ALL of 3 criteria are fullfilled, which would mean the group is already dead.
1) There are no new posts for let's say 6 month.
2) All of the last posts are from users, which are not members anymore or which have not been active for a long time (a year or so).
3) There is no administrator.
The absence of an administrator alone (or the absence of an "active" admin alone) can never be a reason to close or delete a group, if there are MANY NEW POSTS OF ACTIVE MEMBERS, which means the group is ALIVE. Who is so massively hurt by this current state, tell me. Why not wait until a new admin is found in the future.
In general: I think it's an unfriendly action against these active members, who are posting in this group. The only way would be an offer to all these active members to merge this group with a very similar, more active group and if they agree, an automatic transfer of their images in the other group.
Such a merge of 2 groups was easy to manage with the Patagonia groups. But this was easy, because there were few members, I know both groups and almost all images were duplicates.
Who "owns" a group? The active members? The Administrator(s)? The IMA? Nobody?
1) There are no new posts for let's say 6 month.
2) All of the last posts are from users, which are not members anymore or which have not been active for a long time (a year or so).
Those are criteria defined by you. Who will decide? Group members or the group admin? Or ima team?
If we have a look at Group guidelines: Public groups are not your property
By creating public groups, you contribute to the public image of ipernity. Act responsibly. Always keep in mind to serve the overall welfare of ipernity. Formulate the group rules appropriately in accordance with the basic principle of ipernity as a cosmopolitan community in which different cultures and views may have their place. If in doubt, consult with the ima team. If your group doesn't succeed, dissolve it or merge it with a thematically matching group. Help ensure that the overall public perception of ipernity does not appear too fragmented.
Avoid duplicates
If there is already a public group on a topic, it is usually no good idea to create an additional one of your own. For external visitors, a fragmented ipernity is unattractive. You'd better join the existing group and enrich it with your content. In this way you help to keep ipernity clear, lively and interesting.
Although, after many years it is rather dificcult to say who have created something before another.
Sami, of course this was only my very humble personal opinion, as it is yours. Exchange of opinions. Decide and make, what you think is important for the wellbeing of Ipernity.
Unfortunately there still is no tool to merge groups. So, those members who hae not yet contributed on other thematic duplicate groups, have to do it themselves.
But once again, thanks to your feedback, I again try to improve.
And for the record, only one anonymous visit besides us. So, people really does not seem to care.
I repeatedly mentioned - and also Markus e.g., that the main reason for most of all groups is NOT, to visit the group very often, but to create a pool for certain special times. "people does not seem to care" is therefore no argument. I appreciate your action to find active administrators very much. But again, to close or even to delete groups which are very active (except there is no admin), is very unfriendly, at least. You have to understand, green hippos are bigmouthed, but others simply don't express their view, but could feel similar.
Btw, what is the group "Monochrome Photography" bzw. "Monochrom Fotografie"? I see, that I'm a member, but I don't remember this name. Was it renamed? This is totally confusing. I know a group under a certain name, and then it's suddenly renamed. Do you know the former name? Same applies to "water forms", I'm even moderator there, but don't remember the name, was it renamed? There must be a former name, which I knew. I'm sure I could find others.
"the group "Monochrome Photography" bzw. "Monochrom Fotografie"? I see, that I'm a member, but I don't remember this name. Was it renamed?"
Yes, reanamed by me. Previously been "Mono Images - Invitation NOT Needed" by Gina P. I am the admin, and used the liberty to rename it. You may like it or not, but the goal is to provide at least one group that allow monochromes other than only black and white:
I then may alienate those who have used to the old name, but it is better for the search point of view. Btter than "mono images".
"Same applies to "water forms", I'm even moderator there, but don't remember the name, was it renamed?"
It was "0P3N.water" by josepina EPHEMERE, who had several groups with an idea of "OPEN" groups. The system may have made sense when josepina was looking after them. But not anymore. But the name was already changed before me. These groups have been passed form one to another for quite some time.
I'm quite inconvenient, I know, but this may be my last comment to this issue. "You may like it or not" is not the question. It's very confusing for all group members. You add an image by writing the first letters into the group field, then all relevant groups occur, but not the old name. I think this is suboptimal. And at least there should be a relevant message to the members, and of course to a moderator. I will not bother you again......I see, that a discussion is unrewarding if you call a group with many new posts and many active members "neglected", only because the administrator is not active or has left Ipernity. Then we have to wait until a new admin is found, even if it takes a long time.
1. What is done in private groups is none of our concern.
2. What is done in public groups shall always be done with ipernity's public image in focus. A cluttered appearance shall be avoided. Duplicates shall be avoided. Where duplicates already exist, merging shall be done whenever possible.
3. According to the group guidelines, the finding of a title is the task of the administrator. Titles shall be concise and accurate. They shall be findable via the search function. Special characters in the title shall be avoided.
There is therefore nothing wrong when a former cryptic, internationally hardly understandable title beginning with '0P3N . . . ' is improved to be compliant with the group guidelines. The new administrator does nothing else than correct a guideline infringement of his predecessor.
That in the regular cases a notification of the group members is desirable is understandable. However, it should also be understood that the additional workload associated with such extensive cleanup activities as the Groupbusters have undertaken is not affordable. After all, we are not talking about just a few groups, but hundreds, if not thousands. We therefore plead for these idealists to be treated with a certain generosity. We are glad that things are progressing at all.
ad 2) .Merging of groups with duplicate groups would be perfect, if active mebers are informed in advance and their images are shifted to the merged group. Otherwise it's a no go, it's an unfriendly action. I fully agree, that titles should be accurate, refering to newly created groups. But absolutely not with groups, which exist for many years. In this case a sudden renaming without any information is nothing but - very - confusing.
I've mentioned this before and say it again. A group should have a unique single name. Now with the extension of title translations many groups have suddenly 3 or more different names, depending on the language settings - and if there was only an English name before, you now see suddenly a german title instead, if you have set German language. I don't know any photo community platform, which handles this issue in this way. One possibility would be one unique multilingual, but I think all different kind of languages could live with a group named "People".
I still see not the reason, why you take the issue with old groups so serious. You really think, that Ipernity's public image suffers under this issue? Really? Look on other platforms, like Flickr (and I never heard anyone complaining about duplicates on Flickr), this is the search result for "flowers": www.flickr.com/search/groups/?text=flowers or for "reflection": www.flickr.com/search/groups/?text=reflection ...you have to scroll down until the end.....
ad3) Yes generosity is always important. Also for old groups, group names, duplicate or better similar topics, and its active members.
I really appreciate the time you take to think about what we're doing and write clearly about your thoughts on it. Your input is very helpful. I agree with some of it, other points I think are a mis-understanding, other things we just have different visions.
So from where I stand and as one of the admins of Groupbusters I want to try and clarify some things.
[Know that even though I am a team member and admin of Groupbusters, I am not speaking for the team here. Any errors can be corrected by the team.]
1) The main goal of the GroupBusters is to get rid of the groups abandoned by the Guest members.
2) Groups with thematic duplicates administrated by Club members can stay.
(Though we hope that such groups will consider combining with the duplicates - we are not forcing it.) I personally understand reasons for there being multiple groups on similar themes, but if identical themes can be merged, this is a goal of ours.
Know that the merging of groups is not a simple process. It is basically a manual process that requires group members to do some of the work. (Our website program isn't set up to do such a change easily.) So this is a careful and fairly slow process.
3) Regarding your comment on "old" groups. We should be clear we are discussing the same thing. From the context of your paragraph, I believe you are talking about groups that are thematic duplicates of other groups.
An important reason for eliminating groups abandoned by Guest members is to have groups that are here to stay on their topic. Without an active administrator groups can easily become random groupings. This does not make ipernity look like a vibrant community.
4) Regarding groups that aren't thematic duplicates but are abandoned by guest members but are actively being contriubted to by current members, then the desire is to find someone using the group to step up and be admin. I personally have stepped up for a couple of such groups. I am interested in the topic and wanted the group to remain. [Perhaps you will find a few groups like that to take on?]
You mention that Flickr doesn't care and doesn't suffer? I bet you're right that Flickr doesn't care, but how do you know Flickr doesn't suffer? They have large numbers of users, but they also have financial difficulties. So who's to say that their miriade of groups isn't part of the problem? While we smartly need to pay attention to what flickr does, we don't need to hold them up as a yardstick for what we do.
Thank you specifically for mentioning how the change of a group name can effect people's use of the group. I don't believe we had considered that side of things. So as a curtesy I am suggesting that we send a ipermail to group members if such a change takes place, but this is not a guarantee that will always happen. However, know that any admin can change a group name whenever they want, and so while it may be frustrating for the members of a group whose name changes, it is not out of line with how groups work here.
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39 comments
Berny said:
GroupBuster (ima tea… replied to Berny:
And if you don't, then please help finding someone.
GroupBuster (ima tea… replied to Berny:
www.ipernity.com/search/group?view=2&opt=1&q=mirror+%7Creflect&w=0&s=1&m=0
Berny said:
1) There are no new posts for let's say 6 month.
2) All of the last posts are from users, which are not members anymore or which have not been active for a long time (a year or so).
3) There is no administrator.
The absence of an administrator alone (or the absence of an "active" admin alone) can never be a reason to close or delete a group, if there are MANY NEW POSTS OF ACTIVE MEMBERS, which means the group is ALIVE. Who is so massively hurt by this current state, tell me. Why not wait until a new admin is found in the future.
In general: I think it's an unfriendly action against these active members, who are posting in this group. The only way would be an offer to all these active members to merge this group with a very similar, more active group and if they agree, an automatic transfer of their images in the other group.
Such a merge of 2 groups was easy to manage with the Patagonia groups. But this was easy, because there were few members, I know both groups and almost all images were duplicates.
Who "owns" a group? The active members? The Administrator(s)? The IMA? Nobody?
GroupBuster (ima tea… said:
What comes to reasons you mentioned:
1) There are no new posts for let's say 6 month.
2) All of the last posts are from users, which are not members anymore or which have not been active for a long time (a year or so).
Those are criteria defined by you. Who will decide? Group members or the group admin? Or ima team?
If we have a look at Group guidelines:
Public groups are not your property
By creating public groups, you contribute to the public image of ipernity. Act responsibly. Always keep in mind to serve the overall welfare of ipernity. Formulate the group rules appropriately in accordance with the basic principle of ipernity as a cosmopolitan community in which different cultures and views may have their place.
So, I will consult ima team then.
GroupBuster (ima tea… replied to GroupBuster (ima tea…:
Avoid duplicates
If there is already a public group on a topic, it is usually no good idea to create an additional one of your own. For external visitors, a fragmented ipernity is unattractive. You'd better join the existing group and enrich it with your content. In this way you help to keep ipernity clear, lively and interesting.
Although, after many years it is rather dificcult to say who have created something before another.
But at least this has been before: www.ipernity.com/group/reflections
And will become as a subject of takeover soon...
And this administrated by a Club member: www.ipernity.com/group/reflection
Also this administrated by a Club member: www.ipernity.com/group/mirror.spieglein
Berny said:
GroupBuster (ima tea… replied to Berny:
But once again, thanks to your feedback, I again try to improve.
And for the record, only one anonymous visit besides us. So, people really does not seem to care.
Berny replied to GroupBuster (ima tea…:
Btw, what is the group "Monochrome Photography" bzw. "Monochrom Fotografie"? I see, that I'm a member, but I don't remember this name. Was it renamed? This is totally confusing. I know a group under a certain name, and then it's suddenly renamed. Do you know the former name? Same applies to "water forms", I'm even moderator there, but don't remember the name, was it renamed? There must be a former name, which I knew. I'm sure I could find others.
GroupBuster (ima tea… replied to Berny:
Yes, reanamed by me. Previously been "Mono Images - Invitation NOT Needed" by Gina P. I am the admin, and used the liberty to rename it. You may like it or not, but the goal is to provide at least one group that allow monochromes other than only black and white:
www.ipernity.com/search/group?w=0&q=monochrom
I then may alienate those who have used to the old name, but it is better for the search point of view. Btter than "mono images".
"Same applies to "water forms", I'm even moderator there, but don't remember the name, was it renamed?"
It was "0P3N.water" by josepina EPHEMERE, who had several groups with an idea of "OPEN" groups. The system may have made sense when josepina was looking after them. But not anymore. But the name was already changed before me. These groups have been passed form one to another for quite some time.
Berny said:
Team said:
2. What is done in public groups shall always be done with ipernity's public image in focus. A cluttered appearance shall be avoided. Duplicates shall be avoided. Where duplicates already exist, merging shall be done whenever possible.
3. According to the group guidelines, the finding of a title is the task of the administrator. Titles shall be concise and accurate. They shall be findable via the search function. Special characters in the title shall be avoided.
There is therefore nothing wrong when a former cryptic, internationally hardly understandable title beginning with '0P3N . . . ' is improved to be compliant with the group guidelines. The new administrator does nothing else than correct a guideline infringement of his predecessor.
That in the regular cases a notification of the group members is desirable is understandable. However, it should also be understood that the additional workload associated with such extensive cleanup activities as the Groupbusters have undertaken is not affordable. After all, we are not talking about just a few groups, but hundreds, if not thousands. We therefore plead for these idealists to be treated with a certain generosity. We are glad that things are progressing at all.
Berny replied to Team:
I've mentioned this before and say it again. A group should have a unique single name. Now with the extension of title translations many groups have suddenly 3 or more different names, depending on the language settings - and if there was only an English name before, you now see suddenly a german title instead, if you have set German language. I don't know any photo community platform, which handles this issue in this way. One possibility would be one unique multilingual, but I think all different kind of languages could live with a group named "People".
I still see not the reason, why you take the issue with old groups so serious. You really think, that Ipernity's public image suffers under this issue? Really? Look on other platforms, like Flickr (and I never heard anyone complaining about duplicates on Flickr), this is the search result for "flowers": www.flickr.com/search/groups/?text=flowers or for "reflection": www.flickr.com/search/groups/?text=reflection ...you have to scroll down until the end.....
ad3) Yes generosity is always important. Also for old groups, group names, duplicate or better similar topics, and its active members.
Team said:
www.ipernity.com/search/group?view=2&opt=&q=reflect&w=0&s=0&m=0
Merging the general groups is absolutely desirable in terms of how our website presents itself to outside visitors.
raingirl replied to Berny:
I really appreciate the time you take to think about what we're doing and write clearly about your thoughts on it. Your input is very helpful. I agree with some of it, other points I think are a mis-understanding, other things we just have different visions.
So from where I stand and as one of the admins of Groupbusters I want to try and clarify some things.
[Know that even though I am a team member and admin of Groupbusters, I am not speaking for the team here. Any errors can be corrected by the team.]
1) The main goal of the GroupBusters is to get rid of the groups abandoned by the Guest members.
2) Groups with thematic duplicates administrated by Club members can stay.
(Though we hope that such groups will consider combining with the duplicates - we are not forcing it.) I personally understand reasons for there being multiple groups on similar themes, but if identical themes can be merged, this is a goal of ours.
Know that the merging of groups is not a simple process. It is basically a manual process that requires group members to do some of the work. (Our website program isn't set up to do such a change easily.) So this is a careful and fairly slow process.
3) Regarding your comment on "old" groups. We should be clear we are discussing the same thing. From the context of your paragraph, I believe you are talking about groups that are thematic duplicates of other groups.
An important reason for eliminating groups abandoned by Guest members is to have groups that are here to stay on their topic. Without an active administrator groups can easily become random groupings. This does not make ipernity look like a vibrant community.
4) Regarding groups that aren't thematic duplicates but are abandoned by guest members but are actively being contriubted to by current members, then the desire is to find someone using the group to step up and be admin. I personally have stepped up for a couple of such groups. I am interested in the topic and wanted the group to remain. [Perhaps you will find a few groups like that to take on?]
You mention that Flickr doesn't care and doesn't suffer? I bet you're right that Flickr doesn't care, but how do you know Flickr doesn't suffer? They have large numbers of users, but they also have financial difficulties. So who's to say that their miriade of groups isn't part of the problem? While we smartly need to pay attention to what flickr does, we don't need to hold them up as a yardstick for what we do.
Thank you specifically for mentioning how the change of a group name can effect people's use of the group. I don't believe we had considered that side of things. So as a curtesy I am suggesting that we send a ipermail to group members if such a change takes place, but this is not a guarantee that will always happen. However, know that any admin can change a group name whenever they want, and so while it may be frustrating for the members of a group whose name changes, it is not out of line with how groups work here.